Natural immunity from Covid more protective?

From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 5 Oct 2021 11:41
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 1 of 62
I had a debate with one of my neighbors recently. He hadn't gotten his vaccine at that time and he said that he read an article out of Israel that showed people who had recovered from Covid had a natural immunity against the virus that proved better than the vaccine. Here's the study he was referring to:

My neighbor also said that those who had Covid and did get at least one vaccine were even more protected than those who had the 2 doses of the vaccine.

I found an article that shows both sides of the argument but still suggests that those who had Covid still get the vaccine.

Where does natural immunity stand in fight over vaccine mandates?

Laura Ramirez-Feldman

October 4, 2021, 7:10 PM

Yahoo News


With the Biden administration’s vaccine mandate deadline fast approaching, and many states and private employers continuing to require vaccination, many unvaccinated American workers could soon lose their jobs if they don’t comply with these inoculation requirements. That has already been the case for hundreds of health care workers and airline workers across the country who have refused the vaccine.

Among some of the arguments against the COVID-19 vaccine mandates is that immunity from a previous coronavirus infection should count as an alternative to vaccination. This topic has received a lot of attention of late, with NBA players and health care workers speaking out and citing “natural immunity” as what they believe to be a valid reason for refusing to get the shot.

Last week NBA player Jonathan Isaac said at a press conference that he wasn’t getting vaccinated against COVID-19. His reasoning? Natural immunity.

“I would start with I’ve had COVID in the past, and so our understanding of antibodies, of natural immunity, has changed a great deal from the onset of the pandemic and is still evolving,” Isaac said.

The natural immunity argument has also emerged as a potential legal challenge to states and federally mandated vaccination policies.

In New York, a vaccine mandate for more than 650,000 hospital and nursing home workers has prompted a flurry of lawsuits across the state brought by nurses and others who are seeking various exemptions, including one for people who have had COVID-19.

On Thursday a judge upheld the University of California’s COVID-19 vaccine requirement against a challenge by a professor who alleged he was immune to COVID-19 due to a prior coronavirus infection. The U.S. District Court judge overseeing the case said the university system acted rationally to protect public health by mandating the vaccine and not giving exemptions to individuals with some level of natural immunity. The ruling appears to be the first on the issue, and it may influence future rulings on this matter.

But what does the scientific evidence say about which offers better protection — natural immunity or vaccine immunity? The answer is, like almost everything around COVID, complicated.

Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease specialist and professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, says the data available is mixed, with some studies pointing to natural immunity being as effective as some of the vaccines, and other studies suggesting the opposite.

“When data is mixed, we say we have equipoise and keep on studying,” Gandhi tweeted.

However, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and most medical professionals in the U.S. widely recommend the COVID-19 vaccine for everyone who is eligible regardless of whether they have already been infected with the coronavirus.

According to the CDC and health experts supporting this guidance, one reason for this recommendation is that research has not yet shown how long protection from the virus lasts after recovering from COVID-19. In addition, the agency says one of its recent studies, which went through a “rigorous multi-level clearance process,” showed that vaccination offers higher protection than a previous coronavirus infection.

The peer-reviewed study of 246 Kentucky residents concluded that unvaccinated people who already had COVID-19 were more than 2 times as likely than fully vaccinated people to get COVID-19 again.

Dr. Peter Hotez, co-director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children’s Hospital, told Yahoo News that another reason why those who have had COVID-19 should get vaccinated is because not everyone builds robust immunity after infection.

“If you look at some of those early studies, people who are infected and recover have highly variable heterogeneous responses to the virus,” Hotez said. “Some have pretty strong, vigorous responses. Others have almost no virus, neutralizing antibodies or responses at all, and are highly susceptible to reinfection,” Hotez added.

Since it is difficult to determine where someone may wind up on that scale, Hotez says the best thing to do is to recommend vaccination for those who’ve had the disease already.

But proponents of including natural immunity in the vaccine mandates equation are also basing their argument on scientific data. They point to certain studies over the past year that have shown that natural immunity offers significant protection against reinfection. These include studies out of Cleveland Clinic and Washington University, as well as Israel.

The Israel study, however, has been the one that has received the most attention recently.

According to the 778,658-person study, which has yet to be peer-reviewed, people who recovered from prior infection and remained unvaccinated were 27 times less likely to experience symptomatic reinfection from the Delta variant when compared to those who had not been infected and received two doses of the mRNA Pfizer vaccine. The study also found that a single dose of the vaccine in people with natural immunity boosted protection against the Delta variant.

In response to the Israeli study, Dr. Anthony Fauci, the White House chief medical adviser, said natural immunity was “something that we need to sit down and discuss seriously.” He added that the study didn’t provide information on the durability of the protection from prior infection, and that there is a lot more that needs to be accounted for and studied further when it comes to this topic.

Other arguments that have been brought forth by opponents of the vaccine mandates is that in other countries, for example Britain and Israel, proof of prior infection is taken into account, with people being able to receive a vaccination passport for six months. In the United States, however, that is not the case.

Even though opponents have argued that vaccine mandates shouldn’t be one-size-fits-all, many health experts believe that vaccinating people who have already had COVID-19 is, ultimately, the most responsible public health policy right now. “There’s no doubt that natural infection does provide significant immunity for many people, but we’re operating in an environment of imperfect information, and in that environment the precautionary principle applies — better safe than sorry,” former CDC Director Tom Frieden told the British Medical Journal.

Hotez says this universal vaccination strategy is also the best approach at the moment because of the challenges that exist in testing people’s level of immunity or protection from COVID-19 on a large scale.

“We do have tests to measure antibodies. In theory, you could even measure virus, neutralizing antibodies in a specialty lab, but that’s not easy to do in a high-throughput way,” he said. “We do not have what we call a true correlate of protection. We do not have a blood test or even a series of blood tests that we can say definitively, you know, thumbs-up, thumbs-down, you’re protected or not,” he added.

Finally, health experts say vaccination is simply a more quantifiable, predictable and reliable way to protect the population right now, so Hotez emphasizes the importance of getting the shot, even if you’ve had COVID-19 before.

“The bottom line is that if you’re infected and recovered, you’re still susceptible to reinfection, especially from this Delta variant. ... If you’ve not been vaccinated, get vaccinated; if you’ve been infected and recovered, get vaccinated,” he said.

EDITED: 5 Oct 2021 11:48 by RAZZMAN
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 5 Oct 2021 14:04
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 2 of 62
Cole Beasley, the Bills diminutive receiver, has been the Anti-Vaccine poster boy in the NFL this season. After the Bills 40-0 win over Houston Sunday, Beasley whined that some fans were booing him because of his Anti-vaccination stance. This was after the 75,000 who attended had to show proof that they were vaccinated to get inside the stadium.  

Beasley has been posting tweets since the NFL came out with their vaccine policies. He refuses to get his Covid vaccines, which is his right. However, he risks infecting his teammates and destroying the Bills chances for a potential Super Bowl run.

Beasley has been constantly tweeting his protests over the NFL strict Covid rules. Back on August 26, he was fined $14,650 by the NFL for failing to wear a mask inside the team facility. All he has to do is to look at several MLB teams that got a Covid epidemic in their locker rooms to see what one infection to a key player could mean for the Bills chances. If Josh Allen got infected, how would that affect the team? Imagine if they had a couple multi-player infections like the Yankees had this year.

If Beasley's refusal to get vaccinated causes a Covid outbreak in the Bills locker room, it could result in the Bills forfeiting a game and the players not getting paid for that game. The NFL has put added pressure to get the players vaccinated. According to the NFL, “teams that experience a COVID-19 outbreak among nonvaccinated players could forfeit regular-season games, with players on both teams not getting paid.”

“If a game can’t be rescheduled and is canceled due to a COVID outbreak among non-vaccinated players on one of the competing teams, the team with the outbreak will forfeit and will be deemed to have played 16 games for purposes of draft, waiver priority, etc,” NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said.

Here's the Buffalo News article about Beasley being fined for not wearing a mask.

In my opinion, if the fans must be vaccinated to enter the stadium, the players should also. In fact, it's even more important for the players to be vaccinated than the fans as a team's success largely depends on the team being healthy.

Beasley is playing with a loaded gun, or in this case, entering the locker room with a loaded gun.

The Buffalo News and all the Buffalo media was talking more about Beasley crying about being booed by the fans than the Bills big 40-0 win over Houston Monday.

Cole Beasley says Bills fans booed him, but what's he hoping to gain?

Jay Skurski
Buffalo News

Oct 4, 2021

Cole Beasley’s at it again.

The Buffalo Bills’ slot receiver took to social media Monday morning following a 40-0 victory over the Houston Texans to accuse home fans of booing him during the game.

Beasley, who had two catches for 16 yards in the win, (again) broke his self-imposed Twitter ban during the regular season to not only question Bills fans, but also question the Covid-19 vaccine (again).

The tweet: “Only place I get boo’d is at our home stadium. Then some of the same people want me to take pictures and sign autographs. I thought bills fans were the best in the world? Where’d they go? If the vaccine works then why do vaxxed people need to be protected from unvaxxed? #letemin”

Let’s work through this piece by piece.

Beasley’s claim that he is being booed at Highmark Stadium was met with plenty of pushback by fans on social media, most of whom claim that it’s not “boo” he’s hearing, but rather a drawn-out “Bease,” similar to the sound fans used to make for Bruce Smith. Beasley later acknowledged that some fans are saying "Bease," but he noted there were fans behind the team's bench who were yelling at him to get vaccinated.

So let’s take Beasley at his word and concede some fans maybe are booing him. Should that come as a huge surprise? He’s in a stadium packed with 68,087 fans – all of whom have at least started their vaccination process. Or, they are at least supposed to have. It’s a good bet there are some fans who made it in who haven’t been vaccinated. Nevertheless, if 60-something thousand people have decided getting vaccinated is the right choice from them, it stands to reason that at least some of them may take issue with Beasley’s frequent posts questioning the vaccine.

The question he asked Monday is one that has been answered by countless health experts. But once more, here is an answer, provided directly from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s website: “Right now, most cases of Covid-19 are in people who are not fully vaccinated. Although Covid-19 vaccines currently appear very effective against severe disease and death, no vaccine is perfect. Some people who are fully vaccinated will still get Covid-19; these are called vaccine breakthrough cases. Some evidence shows that vaccination may make illness less severe for those who still get sick. This includes people aged 65 years and older, who are at higher risk of severe Covid-19 illness.”

Beasley’s unwillingness to either accept, or understand, that is one thing. It’s quite another that he continues to tweet through it for all the world to read. By now, everyone knows Beasley is dug in. For whatever his reason might be, he’s not going to get vaccinated, which is his choice.

Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban engaged Beasley in a series of responses to the original tweet.

"Bease, the problem isn't so much your choice as it is your logic," Cuban tweeted. "You know the rules that apply to your choice, and that is yours to make. But the examples you give as the basis for why you make your choice are questionable."

Beasley responded: "I didn’t get it cause I do not need it. What other explanation do you need? The fact that I need to explain any reason for my own choice is the problem. That’s the whole point. The risks are not the same for everyone."

Cuban said the businesses have a "100% right" to make decisions for their employees just as Beasley has a "100%" right to make his own choice. Beasley argued that a mandate takes away that choice and the narrative is that players who won't get vaccinated are being selfish.

It’s hard to figure what the upside is here. For as dug in as he is in his beliefs, so too is the NFL in its protocols for vaccinated and unvaccinated players. So too is the team, which implemented its current vaccination policy last month, one that requires all fans inside Highmark Stadium to be fully vaccinated by the Oct. 31 home game against Miami.

Nothing is going to change on either side, so tweeting about it is simply an unwelcome distraction. General Manager Brandon Beane and head coach Sean McDermott must be beside themselves. Both of them have made it clear they believe it is in the best interest of both players and the team as a whole to be vaccinated.

McDermott was asked on two separate occasions Monday about Beasley's comments, but deflected both times.

"We're in Week 5 of this season, respectfully here, guys, and I'm not going to get into vaccination status, and this and that," he said. "I'm here to coach football and our team's here to play football. That's what we're here to do. Our fans' support is, to me, unmatched around the NFL. I can't say enough about it. It's a great environment, and the way we travel, as well, is unmatched throughout the NFL."

It's understandable that McDermott tried his best to steer clear of the conversation as much as possible. His No. 1 priority during the season is limiting distractions surrounding his team.

Beasley isn’t alone among players on the roster in not taking the advice of the head coach and getting vaccinated. None of the other unvaccinated players, however, are creating a distraction about it by calling out the franchise’s fans.

The Bills are 3-1. They have absolutely demolished their last three opponents. The biggest game of their season is coming up against their nemesis. The last thing they need is their slot receiver spending his Monday morning openly insulting their fans on social media.
EDITED: 5 Oct 2021 14:10 by RAZZMAN
From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 6 Oct 2021 08:06
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 3 of 62
Acually I agree with Beasley so long as gets tested frequently.

BTW, if all the other players are vaxxed, what are they worried about? If they are concerned about getting covid despite being vaxxed, then what is the point of the vax.

As I have said, have to see an orthopedist today about my hip. The long term affects of the vax are unknown at this time. 

The only reason I got vaxxed was due to my kid's wedding and potential cruising mandates.
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 6 Oct 2021 08:49
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 4 of 62
I agree that Beasley and others have the right to not get vaccinated. If, by doing so, he jeopardizes the success of the team, then that is problematic.

One of the problems is that the Bills have one of the lowest number of players who are vaxed. If one player, say Beasley, gets Covid and multiple players then contract it (similar to what happened to the Yankees 2 times this season), the league may forfeit the gamed against the Bills. Then all the Bills players lose their pay for that game. That's on Beasley and I'm sure the players will be happy about that. Also, by losing that game and losing key players for at least 2 weeks, that could throw a huge wrench into their playoff chances.

Another thing about Beasley, keep your trap shut. By crying about the fans booing him will only inspire more of that in future home games. Also, he's causing a distraction in the locker room. The team needs to focus on beating their opponents, not bickering with the fans.

Is it all worth it in a sport where having a healthy team is essential to winning? I agree with what Beasley originally said, that he may retire because of the league's tough Covid rules. I say to him: "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"
EDITED: 6 Oct 2021 09:00 by RAZZMAN
From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 6 Oct 2021 10:05
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 5 of 62
My question is of the Bills non vaxxed players, how many have had Covid and thus have what people call natural immunity????

I do agree Beasley should shut up. LOL
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 6 Oct 2021 18:36
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 6 of 62
of the Bills non vaxxed players, how many have had Covid and thus have what people call natural immunity????

Good question. Nobody know. I sure don't. I think a few of them may have had Covid. The first article I posted here was about the natural immunity and how an Israeli study said that those who had Covid have a better immunity. That article also had a lot of arguments against that claim.

From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 7 Oct 2021 09:07
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 7 of 62
Some people want the pandemic to last as long as possible for political purposes. Even Lord Fauci was asked about natural immunity by Sanjay Gupta and the Lord said he has no idea. If you get chicken pox, do you need a chicken pox vaccine? What disease ever requires a vax after contracting it? Just saying...
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 7 Oct 2021 09:19
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 8 of 62
All I know is that there is so much information out there that counters and cancels each other that I will just do the things that I know make me safe. Keep on wearing masks in public places, try to keep a distance from people in stores who are not wearing masks, washing my hands and taking all my supplements.

To me, all the reports and studies are getting to be fake news, on both sides of the vaccine/mask controversy.
From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 7 Oct 2021 09:41
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 9 of 62
Just stay home is the best advice. LOL
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 7 Oct 2021 09:58
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 10 of 62
That's what I was doing a lot last year. I hope to someday be able to enjoy my retirement and travel to some scenic parts of the U.S. and Canada the next few years.
From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 7 Oct 2021 13:05
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 11 of 62
Some of the most beautiful Peloton Scenic rides are up in Canada at Lake Louise and Banff. British Columbia is also really scenic.
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 7 Oct 2021 15:23
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 12 of 62
I did want to go to Newfoundland sometime. That sounds like a beautiful place to visit also.
From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 8 Oct 2021 08:03
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 13 of 62
Huh? How about a side trip to Greenland while you are at it. LOL
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 8 Oct 2021 08:58
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 14 of 62
The Canadian Maritimes have some of the most spectacular views and landscapes in the world. Have you ever been to the 4 provinces of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland and Labrador? I never have been there, but have been to Maine a few times. Going to the Canadian Maritimes is one place I'd really want to visit.
From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 8 Oct 2021 09:18
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 15 of 62
They do have cruises up there. I would love to do that in the Fall sometime. LOL
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 8 Oct 2021 09:28
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 16 of 62
Actually I would be more interested in visiting the Canadian Maritimes than even Seattle or Vancouver. Both would be nice though. Also, Hawaii!
From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 8 Oct 2021 09:56
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 17 of 62
Utica and Albany are beautiful this time of year as well.
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 8 Oct 2021 11:00
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 18 of 62
They said on the local weather report today that the fall foliage is almost peak in the Adirondacks and near peak in the Catskills. It's only 25% here.
From: Carl (SPARTACUS) 8 Oct 2021 12:13
To: Razz (RAZZMAN) 19 of 62
I am sure the newly arrived immigrants will enjoy your fall. The winter however, is another story.
From: Razz (RAZZMAN) 8 Oct 2021 14:17
To: Carl (SPARTACUS) 20 of 62
We're having the Indian summer here now, even though we haven't had any frosts yet. It went up to 81 yesterday, it's 76 now and going up to around 80 again next week.